Keith Jarrett and Gaucho - the Fagen and Becker rip-off

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

pfgpowell

2009-04-05 19:12:16 UTC

I was just looking up Babylon Sisters on Wikipedia and I came across
the story (of which I knew nothing) of the lawsuit Keith Jarrett
brought against Fagen and Becker of plagiarism. It seems he claimed
the song Gaucho is ripped off from his song Long As You Know You're
Living Yours. Give it a listen — the resemblance is startling. Rip-off
might be a tad too strong, but at this point I am at a loss to think
of any kinder phrase. Give it a listen on Spotify.

SiD

2009-04-06 13:02:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by pfgpowell
I was just looking up Babylon Sisters on Wikipedia and I came across
the story (of which I knew nothing) of the lawsuit Keith Jarrett
brought against Fagen and Becker of plagiarism. It seems he claimed
the song Gaucho is ripped off from his song Long As You Know You're
Living Yours. Give it a listen — the resemblance is startling.

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980

MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?

BECKER: Yes.

MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?

BECKER: No.

MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.

BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]

MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."

FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.

BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]

SiD

W^3

2009-04-06 23:00:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by SiD

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

Given that, I wonder if they settled out of court.

The old geezer

2009-04-06 23:58:31 UTC

Permalink

Post by SiD

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

Given that, I wonder if they settled out of court....

Yeah, KJ probably made more $$$ off of that than the total of all his
album sales lifetime combined!

The old geezer

ND: Conway's Irish Ale
NP: Dynamic Stillness - Steve Roach

W^3

2009-04-07 05:22:55 UTC

Permalink

In article

Post by The old geezer

Post by SiD

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

Given that, I wonder if they settled out of court....

Yeah, KJ probably made more $$$ off of that than the total of all his
album sales lifetime combined!

Doubt that. The Koln Concert was a massive success, more than 3.5
millions copies sold, and the best-selling solo album in jazz history.

Post by The old geezer
The old geezer
ND: Conway's Irish Ale
NP: Dynamic Stillness - Steve Roach

pfgpowell

2009-04-09 12:01:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by W^3
In article

Post by The old geezer

Post by SiD

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

Given that, I wonder if they settled out of court....

Yeah, KJ probably made more $$$ off of that than the total of all his
album sales lifetime combined!

Doubt that. The Koln Concert was a massive success, more than 3.5
millions copies sold, and the best-selling solo album in jazz history.

Post by The old geezer
The old geezer
ND: Conway's Irish Ale
NP: Dynamic Stillness - Steve Roach

Have any of you guys been able to listen to the relevatn Keith Jarrett
track. What puzzles me is that the resemblance is so strong, even a
deaf donkey would have picked up on it. So why Becker and Fagen went
ahead anyway is almost incomprehensible. It's not as though they
needed a tune, they have plenty excellent other ones of their own.

Steven Folberg

2009-04-26 16:42:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by SiD
Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

Given that, I wonder if they settled out of court....

I just bought the track on iTunes, and the similarity is startling...
not just the sax part, but the piano vamp is very similar to Gaucho.
It's a little disheartening, since "Gaucho" is one of my favorite SD
tunes.

IanKR

2009-04-28 22:19:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by Steven Folberg
I just bought the track on iTunes, and the similarity is startling...
not just the sax part, but the piano vamp is very similar to Gaucho.
It's a little disheartening, since "Gaucho" is one of my favorite SD
tunes.

Hmmm.

I just down-loaded the track from iTunes. I agree that the I IV I IV ...
repeated piano vamp in the intro is similar, and that both have a Spanish
feel in places, but I think it's no more than an influence. They're not
copying any of the sax line, or the chord structure of the verse or the
chorus.

pfgpowell

2009-05-08 10:50:26 UTC

Permalink

Post by IanKR

Hmmm.
I just down-loaded the track from iTunes. I agree that the I IV I IV ...
repeated piano vamp in the intro is similar, and that both have a Spanish
feel in places, but I think it's no more than an influence. They're not
copying any of the sax line, or the chord structure of the verse or the
chorus.

This is whistling in the wind by an incorrigible diehard. The relevant
parts are not 'similar', they are identical. Granted that the middle
bit is different but in the grand scheme of things, that is
irrelevant.

Kyle

2009-04-30 14:53:07 UTC

Permalink

Post by SiD

Coming from THE STEELY DAN INTERNET RESOURCE..
The following interview with Donald and Walter first appeared in
Musician magazine, circa 1980
MUSICIAN: Are you familiar with a Keith Jarrett record Belonging,
particularly a tune called "Long as you know you're living yours"?
BECKER: Yes.
MUSICIAN: Have you ever listened to that up against "Gaucho"?
BECKER: No.
MUSICIAN: I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo
and the bass line and the saxophone melody it's pretty interesting.
BECKER: Parenthetically it is, yeah [uneasy laughter]
MUSICIAN: At this point the reporter traditionally asks the cornered
politican or athlete to "go off the record."
FAGEN: Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular
piece of music.
BECKER: I love it.
[Becker and Fagen later approved their "off the record" responses for
publication.]
SiD

At least they owned up to it and allowed the "off the record" comments
to appear in the (Musician magazine) article.

Darrin

2009-04-11 17:01:36 UTC

Permalink

Law of averages state: there has to be unintentional similarities
between songs. eh e.g. Listen to the chord progression for "While My
Guitar Gently Weeps," "25 or 6 to 4," and "Babe I'm Going To Leave
You." They're exactly the same! LOL! -D, NYC "Ninety minutes from New
York to Paris (more leisure for artists everywhere)..well by seventy-
six we'll be A-O.K...what a beautiful world this will be..what a
glorious time to be free" - DONALD FAGEN (sweet Jew).."We'll move to
Manhattan and fill the place with friends" - DONALD FAGEN.."Gentleman
loser, drive me to Harlem..or somewhere the same" - STEELY DAN..."From
their boats of iron they looked upon the promised land..Where surely
life was sweet..on the rising tide to New York City" - STEELY
DAN.."Brooklyn owes the charmer under me" - STEELY DAN.."Bad sneakers
and a pina colada my friend, stomping by the Avenue at Radio City" -
STEELY DAN.."Daddy don't live in that New York City no more - he don't
celebrate Sunday on a Saturday night no more" - STEELY DAN

pfgpowell

2009-05-08 10:47:38 UTC

Permalink

Post by Darrin

That reall isn't the point. Granted that the similarity is
unintentional - these guys really do not need to rip anyone off - but
once that similarity was apparent, the wise move would have been to
ditch their own tune and whisper c'est la vie. The true mystery is why
they went ahead anyway, despite, by their own admission ('we were
heavily influenced') realising that there was - albeit inadvertent -
plagiarism.

George Dobbs

2022-05-14 16:43:56 UTC

Permalink

Here's your "kinder phrase": PASTICHE
Here's another: HOMAGE. (It's not an homage if you cannot recognize the bloody similarity).

Klaus & Rooster

2022-05-16 09:01:28 UTC

Permalink

well, there is no reason to scratch Gaucho - the SD recording had more than enough original content to be valuable.
In the end, Don & Walt did the right thing to grant co-authorship to Keith Jarrett for Gaucho.

Dan Drummond

2022-05-20 23:53:38 UTC

Permalink

I think I remember something about Donald admitting he'd loved the track and was strongly influenced by it, on hearing the track from Jarrett's Belonging album, it's obvious, but Gaucho stands on it's own. Both are fine tracks though.

I've been able to isolate the majority of the tracks from the Gaucho (bass, synth, drums, vocals, etc.) and even now, years on, I'm still learning more about the song, such as sweeping synth solo at 04:22 - 04:23 and other nuances which previously could only be heard on a mixing desks with the master reels.

It's been fun taking the song apart to 14 different combinations of vocals, bass, guitar, brass, synth, drums/percussion, etc. the problem I've got now as that I want to do the same for the entire Steely Dan/solo collection, which will take a while. The process doesn't work with all songs sadly - I've been trying to isolate the harmonies on Peg's chorus for example, but the frequencies are so close, what comes back is mixed in with main vocals, but it still sounds amazing. Their early material, including the earlier demos like Stone Piano, etc. work particularly well.

The one thing I have been playing around with is changing the scale from the original track to a Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Dorian, etc. - it changes some songs in ways you'd never expect, namely Aja, where changing the scale to a major scale, feels so wrong and yet changing the scale on other songs that use a lot of major chords to a melodic/harmonic minor scale, almost gives the song a darker edge, for example, Walk Between The Raindrops, now sounds like it belongs in a David Lynch film ;) I'd upload a sample but can't upload files on here.

Klaus & Rooster

2022-07-08 11:39:19 UTC

Permalink

There is an interview by Leo Sidran from 2019, where Donald Fagen says a few sentences on the topic of Gaucho and Keith Jarrett.
You can hear the interview on Spotify in Leo Sidran's Podcast "the Third Story". Very interesting and very entertaining...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/02s5On1QWtrshMKph0cwt0?si=BfSDLZgdQTWBJanTAX0iIA

Best Regards,

I think I remember something about Donald admitting he'd loved the track and was strongly influenced by it, on hearing the track from Jarrett's Belonging album, it's obvious, but Gaucho stands on it's own. Both are fine tracks though.
I've been able to isolate the majority of the tracks from the Gaucho (bass, synth, drums, vocals, etc.) and even now, years on, I'm still learning more about the song, such as sweeping synth solo at 04:22 - 04:23 and other nuances which previously could only be heard on a mixing desks with the master reels.
It's been fun taking the song apart to 14 different combinations of vocals, bass, guitar, brass, synth, drums/percussion, etc. the problem I've got now as that I want to do the same for the entire Steely Dan/solo collection, which will take a while. The process doesn't work with all songs sadly - I've been trying to isolate the harmonies on Peg's chorus for example, but the frequencies are so close, what comes back is mixed in with main vocals, but it still sounds amazing. Their early material, including the earlier demos like Stone Piano, etc. work particularly well.
The one thing I have been playing around with is changing the scale from the original track to a Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Dorian, etc. - it changes some songs in ways you'd never expect, namely Aja, where changing the scale to a major scale, feels so wrong and yet changing the scale on other songs that use a lot of major chords to a melodic/harmonic minor scale, almost gives the song a darker edge, for example, Walk Between The Raindrops, now sounds like it belongs in a David Lynch film ;) I'd upload a sample but can't upload files on here.

Dan Drummond

2022-07-14 21:56:46 UTC

Permalink

Post by Klaus & Rooster
There is an interview by Leo Sidran from 2019, where Donald Fagen says a few sentences on the topic of Gaucho and Keith Jarrett.
You can hear the interview on Spotify in Leo Sidran's Podcast "the Third Story". Very interesting and very entertaining...
https://open.spotify.com/episode/02s5On1QWtrshMKph0cwt0?si=BfSDLZgdQTWBJanTAX0iIA
Best Regards,

I think I remember something about Donald admitting he'd loved the track and was strongly influenced by it, on hearing the track from Jarrett's Belonging album, it's obvious, but Gaucho stands on it's own. Both are fine tracks though.
I've been able to isolate the majority of the tracks from the Gaucho (bass, synth, drums, vocals, etc.) and even now, years on, I'm still learning more about the song, such as sweeping synth solo at 04:22 - 04:23 and other nuances which previously could only be heard on a mixing desks with the master reels.
It's been fun taking the song apart to 14 different combinations of vocals, bass, guitar, brass, synth, drums/percussion, etc. the problem I've got now as that I want to do the same for the entire Steely Dan/solo collection, which will take a while. The process doesn't work with all songs sadly - I've been trying to isolate the harmonies on Peg's chorus for example, but the frequencies are so close, what comes back is mixed in with main vocals, but it still sounds amazing. Their early material, including the earlier demos like Stone Piano, etc. work particularly well.
The one thing I have been playing around with is changing the scale from the original track to a Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Dorian, etc. - it changes some songs in ways you'd never expect, namely Aja, where changing the scale to a major scale, feels so wrong and yet changing the scale on other songs that use a lot of major chords to a melodic/harmonic minor scale, almost gives the song a darker edge, for example, Walk Between The Raindrops, now sounds like it belongs in a David Lynch film ;) I'd upload a sample but can't upload files on here.

It's a great interview, certainly better than Paul Shaffer's 'interview' last year - I always thought that a collaboration with Don and Ben Sidran would be interesting.. :)

Klaus & Rooster

2022-08-21 20:57:25 UTC

Permalink

I think I remember something about Donald admitting he'd loved the track and was strongly influenced by it, on hearing the track from Jarrett's Belonging album, it's obvious, but Gaucho stands on it's own. Both are fine tracks though.
I've been able to isolate the majority of the tracks from the Gaucho (bass, synth, drums, vocals, etc.) and even now, years on, I'm still learning more about the song, such as sweeping synth solo at 04:22 - 04:23 and other nuances which previously could only be heard on a mixing desks with the master reels.
It's been fun taking the song apart to 14 different combinations of vocals, bass, guitar, brass, synth, drums/percussion, etc. the problem I've got now as that I want to do the same for the entire Steely Dan/solo collection, which will take a while. The process doesn't work with all songs sadly - I've been trying to isolate the harmonies on Peg's chorus for example, but the frequencies are so close, what comes back is mixed in with main vocals, but it still sounds amazing. Their early material, including the earlier demos like Stone Piano, etc. work particularly well.
The one thing I have been playing around with is changing the scale from the original track to a Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Dorian, etc. - it changes some songs in ways you'd never expect, namely Aja, where changing the scale to a major scale, feels so wrong and yet changing the scale on other songs that use a lot of major chords to a melodic/harmonic minor scale, almost gives the song a darker edge, for example, Walk Between The Raindrops, now sounds like it belongs in a David Lynch film ;) I'd upload a sample but can't upload files on here.

But you could share a link ...

Dan Drummond

2022-09-06 23:42:57 UTC

Permalink

That's a fair point Klaus, I've uploaded a zip file to my DropBox with the entire Nightfly album in a Harmonic Minor key, sounds interesting, happy listening :) I'll leave it available to everyone for a couple of weeks, after that if anyone wants a copy, just let me know. I'm slowly going through every Steely Dan/solo song and converting them to Harmonic Minor, Lydian, Major and Melodic Minor and Whole Tone keys, it's going to take a while, but once it's all done, I'll find a way to share with everyone.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x12vzrydkupwzs9/The%20Dark%20Nightfly.zip?dl=0

Klaus & Rooster

2022-09-21 12:15:17 UTC

Permalink

That's a fair point Klaus, I've uploaded a zip file to my DropBox with the entire Nightfly album in a Harmonic Minor key, sounds interesting, happy listening :) I'll leave it available to everyone for a couple of weeks, after that if anyone wants a copy, just let me know. I'm slowly going through every Steely Dan/solo song and converting them to Harmonic Minor, Lydian, Major and Melodic Minor and Whole Tone keys, it's going to take a while, but once it's all done, I'll find a way to share with everyone.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x12vzrydkupwzs9/The%20Dark%20Nightfly.zip?dl=0

Hey - that sounds quite weird... :-)
thanks for sharing ... harmonic minor ... unbelievable

Dan Drummond

2022-09-22 08:44:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by Klaus & Rooster

That's a fair point Klaus, I've uploaded a zip file to my DropBox with the entire Nightfly album in a Harmonic Minor key, sounds interesting, happy listening :) I'll leave it available to everyone for a couple of weeks, after that if anyone wants a copy, just let me know. I'm slowly going through every Steely Dan/solo song and converting them to Harmonic Minor, Lydian, Major and Melodic Minor and Whole Tone keys, it's going to take a while, but once it's all done, I'll find a way to share with everyone.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x12vzrydkupwzs9/The%20Dark%20Nightfly.zip?dl=0

Hey - that sounds quite weird... :-)
thanks for sharing ... harmonic minor ... unbelievable

No problem Klaus, glad you liked it :)