The role of producer Gary Katz

[Darth Elvis]

Hello one and all,

After reading "Reelin' in the Years" by Brian Sweet and other publications,
documentaries and interviews, it is clear that Don and Walt are very much in
control of their music and the way it is recorded, specially in the
seventies. It leaves me wondering what part producer Gary Katz played. I
know what role a producer normally plays but in Steely Dan's case it seems
that The Two are in control of every aspect of the recording.

Greetings,
Darth Elvis

Make tonight a wonderful thing

[Warren Bloom]

Post by Darth Elvis
After reading "Reelin' in the Years" by Brian Sweet and other
publications, documentaries and interviews, it is clear that Don and
Walt are very much in control of their music and the way it is
recorded, specially in the seventies. It leaves me wondering what part
producer Gary Katz played. I know what role a producer normally plays
but in Steely Dan's case it seems that The Two are in control of every
aspect of the recording.

_Especially_ in the '70s, before they started producing their own albums?
The sound on their '70s and '80s masterpieces under Katz-- slick and
spacey-- have an _entirely_ different sound than their '90s and '00s
albums-- dry and cozy. Since these more recent albums have been
self-produced, it's fair to say that it's only since '93 that we've truly
heard what SD (and DF and WB solo) sounds like when they're in control of
their music and the way it's recorded.

-- wb

[Daniel S. Vieira]

Post by Warren Bloom
_Especially_ in the '70s, before they started producing their own albums?
The sound on their '70s and '80s masterpieces under Katz-- slick and
spacey-- have an _entirely_ different sound than their '90s and '00s
albums-- dry and cozy. Since these more recent albums have been
self-produced, it's fair to say that it's only since '93 that we've truly
heard what SD (and DF and WB solo) sounds like when they're in control of
their music and the way it's recorded.

Remember the "Nightfly" was also produced by Katz.
Kamakiriad was the first album self-produced, and
it certainly does have a sound much closer to
TvN and EMG.

Dan
---
_____________________________________________________________
Daniel S. Vieira
raamthodol **at** earthlink **dot** net

"Nemo enim se mutat; qui mutari se desperet" -- Seneca

"Quid enim est stultius quam incerte pro certe habere,
falsa pro veris?" -- Cicero, Roman Orator
_____________________________________________________________

[serious fun]

A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...

Where is he today?

Post by Darth Elvis
Hello one and all,
After reading "Reelin' in the Years" by Brian Sweet and other

publications,

Post by Darth Elvis
documentaries and interviews, it is clear that Don and Walt are very much in
control of their music and the way it is recorded, specially in the
seventies. It leaves me wondering what part producer Gary Katz played. I
know what role a producer normally plays but in Steely Dan's case it seems
that The Two are in control of every aspect of the recording.
Greetings,
Darth Elvis
Make tonight a wonderful thing

[Patrick Powell]

Post by serious fun
A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...
Where is he today?

I think that is highly unlikely, tho' that hip observation is always
available to those who can't come up with their own hip observations.

Anyone who has ever been involved in producing anything in which more than
2/3 people take part will know that the sum is invariably greater than the
individual parts and that an overall, detached eye and ear is necessary. So
whether Katz was simply relegated to rolling the joints or, as I believe,
had a far more influential role, he was necessary. Remember SD got their
break into the rock business because Katz was offered a producer's job by
ABC Records and accepted only on the condition that he could bring along
Becker and Fagen.

Listening to the recordings which Katz produced and those which B and F
produced brings home how much of an influence he had. Post-Katz (tho' I
don't understand the description of 'dry and cozy') the recordings, to my
ears, are definitely not as good, tho' I couldn't elaborate specifically as
to why. Take Nightfly and Kamakiriad: Nightfly is by far a better sounding
recording (and has stronger songs througout). Would Fagen have been able to
provide his own four-part harmonies on Maxine so well without someone taking
overall control. Probably not.

Along similar lines, I find 11 Tracks etc vastly underrated and look forward
to Becker's next solo disc. Tho' admittedly produced by Fagen, it is very
much of its own kind, a very different style. So Walt, if you read this
newsgroup, get your finger out as we Limeys say.
PP.

[Jon Stone]

I agree with just about everything you say (except for 11 Tracks' excellence)
but have been roundly refuted by those who claim to be in the know about such
things.

I base my opinion mostly on what the demos ended up sounding like after the boys
teamed up with Katz. I don't think it's any coincidence that tunes from such
humble beginnings like Caves and Parker's Band are rendered into full-blown
masterpieces when Katz enters the picture.

Detractors claim that statements by Becker and Fagan that diminish his
contributions are proof-positive that he played no important role. I'd like to
believe otherwise.

Jon

Post by Patrick Powell

Post by serious fun
A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...
Where is he today?

I think that is highly unlikely, tho' that hip observation is always
available to those who can't come up with their own hip observations.
Anyone who has ever been involved in producing anything in which more than
2/3 people take part will know that the sum is invariably greater than the
individual parts and that an overall, detached eye and ear is necessary. So
whether Katz was simply relegated to rolling the joints or, as I believe,
had a far more influential role, he was necessary. Remember SD got their
break into the rock business because Katz was offered a producer's job by
ABC Records and accepted only on the condition that he could bring along
Becker and Fagen.
Listening to the recordings which Katz produced and those which B and F
produced brings home how much of an influence he had. Post-Katz (tho' I
don't understand the description of 'dry and cozy') the recordings, to my
ears, are definitely not as good, tho' I couldn't elaborate specifically as
to why. Take Nightfly and Kamakiriad: Nightfly is by far a better sounding
recording (and has stronger songs througout). Would Fagen have been able to
provide his own four-part harmonies on Maxine so well without someone taking
overall control. Probably not.
Along similar lines, I find 11 Tracks etc vastly underrated and look forward
to Becker's next solo disc. Tho' admittedly produced by Fagen, it is very
much of its own kind, a very different style. So Walt, if you read this
newsgroup, get your finger out as we Limeys say.
PP.

[Patrick Powell]

Post by Jon Stone
I agree with just about everything you say (except for 11 Tracks' excellence)
but have been roundly refuted by those who claim to be in the know about such
things.
I base my opinion mostly on what the demos ended up sounding like after the boys
teamed up with Katz. I don't think it's any coincidence that tunes from such
humble beginnings like Caves and Parker's Band are rendered into full-blown
masterpieces when Katz enters the picture.
Detractors claim that statements by Becker and Fagan that diminish his
contributions are proof-positive that he played no important role. I'd like to
believe otherwise.
Jon

Post by Patrick Powell

Post by serious fun
A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...
Where is he today?

I think that is highly unlikely, tho' that hip observation is always
available to those who can't come up with their own hip observations.
Anyone who has ever been involved in producing anything in which more than
2/3 people take part will know that the sum is invariably greater than the
individual parts and that an overall, detached eye and ear is necessary. So
whether Katz was simply relegated to rolling the joints or, as I believe,
had a far more influential role, he was necessary. Remember SD got their
break into the rock business because Katz was offered a producer's job by
ABC Records and accepted only on the condition that he could bring along
Becker and Fagen.
Listening to the recordings which Katz produced and those which B and F
produced brings home how much of an influence he had. Post-Katz (tho' I
don't understand the description of 'dry and cozy') the recordings, to my
ears, are definitely not as good, tho' I couldn't elaborate specifically as
to why. Take Nightfly and Kamakiriad: Nightfly is by far a better sounding
recording (and has stronger songs througout). Would Fagen have been able to
provide his own four-part harmonies on Maxine so well without someone taking
overall control. Probably not.
Along similar lines, I find 11 Tracks etc vastly underrated and look forward
to Becker's next solo disc. Tho' admittedly produced by Fagen, it is very
much of its own kind, a very different style. So Walt, if you read this
newsgroup, get your finger out as we Limeys say.
PP.

Fair do's, but 11 Tracks is very good.
PP

[desertstorm]

Post by Patrick Powell
Anyone who has ever been involved in producing anything in which more than
2/3 people take part will know that the sum is invariably greater than the
individual parts and that an overall, detached eye and ear is necessary.

I'd tend to disagree with this opinion. The music business works
differently. The best example that comes to my mind is ALAN PARSONS' impact
on the production of 'Dark Side Of The Moon', where the PINK FLOYD musicians
would record throughout the nights and only when ALAN was alone inside the
studio, he would go through all the tracks again, add a noise here, change
an effect there, and so on. When the band reappeared on the next day, they
would usually only agree with his achievements and left it at that. That is
why this particular album is often names PARSONS' real first solo album. The
question is usually "how" a producer really works, and that depends on the
structure of that individual, but also of the other musicians involved. The
Australian LITTLE RIVER BAND for instance once complained about GEORGE
MARTIN'S role in the process of the making of 'Time Exposure' (1981).
Guitarist and songwriter GRAEHAM GOBLE complained in an interview that
MARTIN basically didn't care for the real production work at all. In other
examples one man next to the micing console might change the entire sound as
it emerged from inside the recording room.

Post by Patrick Powell
Listening to the recordings which Katz produced and those which B and F
produced brings home how much of an influence he had. Post-Katz (tho' I
don't understand the description of 'dry and cozy') the recordings, to my
ears, are definitely not as good, tho' I couldn't elaborate specifically as
to why. Take Nightfly and Kamakiriad: Nightfly is by far a better sounding
recording (and has stronger songs througout). Would Fagen have been able to
provide his own four-part harmonies on Maxine so well without someone taking
overall control. Probably not.

The true style of ERIC KAZ as a producer becomes apparent when listening to
other albums he produced, such as CHINA CRISIS, ROSIE VELA or EYE TO EYE.
These examples have a very similar approach in their production style. "Dry"
may describe the particular sound design of the various instruments. With
drums for example, that would mean a very direct 'miking' (the position of
the microphones), only little reverb on the drum tracks, and a very crisp
and easy sound of the high frequencies. A bass guitar on the other hand
would sound well-contoured and 'rolling', not like a 'phat' rock bass, which
may additionally have some distortion. This approach to producing music can
cause a rather transparent sound design of the overall production.
The four-part harmonies on 'Maxine' aren't very difficult to produce, as a
physical activity. Let's make a distinction between someone who just pushed
the button on a multi-track recorder, and a producer. Scottish singer CHRIS
RAINBOW for example recorded hundreds of solo voices in his own personal
studio, and filled gorgeous albums with his magnificent choirs.
Multi-Tracking makes this possible.
d.

[serious fun]

OP here.

The "rolling joints" comment was an opinion expressed to me by someone
intimately involved with the projects (I was not one of them, and the
comment wasn't from either Becker or Fagan). Could be some personality
conflict there...

I personally prefer the sounds of the middle albums (e.g. Scam) over Aja and
Gaucho, much the same as I like Revolver and Rubber Soul over later beatles
albums, but that's just me.

I do like the production values of the China Crisis album and even Root Boy
Slim! Maybe Katz was a hard-working publishing guy Peter Principled to a
position in the SD juggernaut that he couldn't sustain.

Post by Patrick Powell

Post by serious fun
A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...
Where is he today?

I think that is highly unlikely, tho' that hip observation is always
available to those who can't come up with their own hip observations.
Anyone who has ever been involved in producing anything in which more than
2/3 people take part will know that the sum is invariably greater than the
individual parts and that an overall, detached eye and ear is necessary. So
whether Katz was simply relegated to rolling the joints or, as I believe,
had a far more influential role, he was necessary. Remember SD got their
break into the rock business because Katz was offered a producer's job by
ABC Records and accepted only on the condition that he could bring along
Becker and Fagen.
Listening to the recordings which Katz produced and those which B and F
produced brings home how much of an influence he had. Post-Katz (tho' I
don't understand the description of 'dry and cozy') the recordings, to my
ears, are definitely not as good, tho' I couldn't elaborate specifically as
to why. Take Nightfly and Kamakiriad: Nightfly is by far a better sounding
recording (and has stronger songs througout). Would Fagen have been able to
provide his own four-part harmonies on Maxine so well without someone taking
overall control. Probably not.
Along similar lines, I find 11 Tracks etc vastly underrated and look forward
to Becker's next solo disc. Tho' admittedly produced by Fagen, it is very
much of its own kind, a very different style. So Walt, if you read this
newsgroup, get your finger out as we Limeys say.
PP.

[rodgerdodger]

i dont know what gary katz is doing today, but he did produce my all
time favourite album - "Strange Kind of Love" by Scottish band Love
and Money (long since split up) in 1988. Any SD fans who like the
more "edgy" (-dont ask me to explain) SD tracks, would enjoy this
album. its worth a listen for any fan of real music anyway.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:33:40 +0000, Patrick Powell

Post by serious fun
A reliable inside source is of the opinion that Gary Katz was mainly there
to roll the joints...
Where is he today?